10 Speed Transmission Question

ButtonUp and Brian - awesome job of grabbing that information from the manual and quoting it here. There's nothing better than a well-educated debate on a topic and citing the manual is a great way to go. I looked through the manual a bit and found some interesting stuff to cover so let's knock some of this out....

First of all let me state my position again, and indeed it goes directly against what the operator's manual says for the transmission. My position is that you do not have to preselect the hi/lo range before beginning the shift. But don't worry, we're not done yet. I'm going to go directly against what the operator's manual says on some other items in a minute.

I had also downloaded this manual and it states in at least 5 different pages that you MUST pre select range finder before shifting gears and to NEVER switch range selector while in neutral with vehicle moving! ...... or you could do what I did today....instructor called it "ghost gear" went from 5th to 6th....flipped selector too late.....got into the gate for 6th, but nothing there....was in neutral....had to bring it back to 5th and flip range finder again....then it worked.... and of course I was panicking by that time.....and was too high on rpms....pushing in clutch too far engaging clutch brake.....yikes!

You're exactly right about "Ghost Gear" Brian...if you shift incorrectly you will get incorrect results. That didn't happen because you waited until you were in neutral to hit the range selector. It happened because you didn't wait for the transmission to complete the range shift before putting it into the next gear. Your timing was off. Now if you preselect the range before beginning the shift it will give the transmission the maximum time possible to complete the range change which in turn will give you a better chance of completing the shift smoothly. But is it necessary to shift that way? Well I'd say....

Considering how many times I've flipped the range selector in neutral rolling down the road, and haven't broke a transmission yet, I have to believe that it's ok as long as you let it complete the transition before putting it in gear.

Exactly. I have about a million miles in standard transmissions (and about 1/2 million in automatics which doesn't apply here). It doesn't hurt the transmission to shift the range selector while you're in neutral but it does reduce your chances of completing the shift smoothly. Admittedly it can be tricky if you're upshifting and you wait until you're in neutral to hit the range selector because the timing gets a bit tighter. By the time the transmission completes the range change the rpm's may have dropped too low to get it into 6th (on a 10 speed) so you'll have to kick the throttle a bit to get the rpm's back up. Timing is everything.

So thanks to ButtonUp and Brian let me clarify my position. You do not have to preselect the range finder before beginning a shift but it does help give the transmission the maximum amount of time to complete the range change, which in turn gives you the best opportunity to complete the shift smoothly. So preselecting is a recommended procedure but mechanical knowledge about how these transmissions work and years of experience shifting them dictates that you can wait until you're in neutral to switch the range selector.

I'm gonna start a new comment and cover a few more things....

All I can say is if switching the selector actually did any damage while in neutral I would be out of a job for killing so many trucks

Woody

Ok now some new stuff. Here is the actual list of driving tips from the Eaton Fuller Operator's Manual:

• Always use normal double-clutching procedures when making lever shifts
• Always select an initial starting gear that provides sufficient reduction for the load and terrain.
• Never slam or jerk the shift lever to complete gear engagements.
• Never coast with the shift lever in the neutral position.
• Never downshift at too high of a road speed.
• Never move the range lever with the shift lever in neutral while the vehicle is moving.
• Never make a range shift while moving in reverse.
• In most cases, depending on the engine and axle ratios, you can save valuable fuel by operating the vehicle at less than governed RPM while cruising in top gear.
• If the lever shift is completed before the range shift (transmission in neutral), the lever must be moved back to neutral for the range to complete (1X210 models only).

Ok a few notes....

Always use normal double-clutching procedures when making lever shifts

Do we even need to discuss double-clutching versus floating gears? 99.999% of the drivers in America have floated gears for 50+ years. So do you always need to use normal double-clutching procedures? Of course not.

Never coast with the shift lever in the neutral position.

I know they say you're "out of control" if you're coasting in neutral but I've probably coasted 500 miles in neutral over the years and I lived to tell about it and so did all of my transmissions. Again I'm not recommending you do that, but I don't want you guys to think you'll tear up the transmission if you do because it's listed in the operator's manual.

Never downshift at too high of a road speed

Talk about vague....what the h*ll does that mean???? If they mean, "Don't try to downshift if you're going to fast for the next lower gear" then I wouldn't call that a "tip" so much as I would say it isn't physically possible to do so. You can only kick the rpm's up to a certain level. If they won't go high enough to downshift to the next lower gear then you simply won't be able to complete the shift. So they really don't have to tell you not to do that because it isn't physically possible to do that anyhow.

If the lever shift is completed before the range shift (transmission in neutral), the lever must be moved back to neutral for the range to complete (1X210 models only).

This is what we we've been referring to as "Ghost Gear" where the lever is in gear but you're not putting power to the wheels because the range selector wasn't able to complete the range change in time. So you have to put the lever in neutral and allow the range selection to complete. Normally by the time you've done that your rpm's have dropped to idle so you have to kick the rpm's up where they belong to select the next gear. When you're new to driving this can be really tricky because your mind is spinning when something like this happens. Suddenly you're out of gear, you're not sure why, and you're trying to figure out on the fly what happened. You're trying to figure out what gear you belong in, where the range selector should be, and at what rpm's based on your current road speed. This is what happened to Mountain Girl when she said:

Somehow I got myself into this situation and the only way for me to reset my gears was to come to a complete stop, put the stick back into 6th from neutral, stuck between 6th and 7th, stay stopped, flip the switch back down, shift into 5th while staying stationary and then shift down low enough to start moving again, which in this case, was 4th.

And notice they said "the lever must be moved back to neutral for the range to complete". They didn't say you were tearing up the transmission or that you had to come to a complete stop or anything of the sort. They simply said to put it back in neutral to allow the range selection to complete, inferring that you completed the lever shift before the range selection could be completed. No big deal.

So there's a big difference between required procedures and recommended procedures. Double clutching is recommended but not required. Preselecting the range is recommended but not required. Preventing the truck from rolling in neutral is recommended but not required.

What I'm trying to do is give everyone the most specific and technical information I know. I'm not telling you how to drive or shift or anything else. I'm simply sharing the knowledge and experience I've gained over the years about how things really work so you have the best understanding possible. Making smart decisions starts with having accurate information. You guys and gals are brand new so everything you know right now is pretty much how they teach it "by the book". But anyone with a lot of experience in any career will have learned all of the "alternatives to the book" and decide for themselves if doing things "by the book" is the way you'll want to do them or not. I highly recommend you guys do everything by the book in the beginning but learn all you can about everything as you go. Soon enough you'll learn what really works and what doesn't out there.

You know what's worse on transmissions than range selecting in neutral.....

ROOKIES!

You know what's worse on transmissions than range selecting in neutral.....

ROOKIES!

LOL

Excellent info. Hopefully I will put it to good use!

Brett you nailed it about the Eaton Fuller opp manual. Especially the part about double clutching , my company had me doing prehire road test for new drivers, the old pros would float shift so good, you'd think it was an Automatic. The One thing I agree with (Eaton) for sure is Do Not change the selector while moving in "reverse" After I had to get my CDL A for my race car rig in 2011, I got hired on as a big truck mechanic, mostly Macks. I got to see and help with the rebuild of the hi/low range back half section of about 15 different trucks that had the syncros destroyed. Was told it was because drivers would get in condition where they were trying to back up and realize they that it was still in Hi range and then switch it to Low while while still moving in reverse $$$$$$$

This is what happened to Mountain Girl when she said:

-Brett

Somehow I got myself into this situation and the only way for me to reset my gears was to come to a complete stop, put the stick back into 6th from neutral, stuck between 6th and 7th, stay stopped, flip the switch back down, shift into 5th while staying stationary and then shift down low enough to start moving again, which in this case, was 4th.

-mountain girl

And notice they said "the lever must be moved back to neutral for the range to complete". They didn't say you were tearing up the transmission or that you had to come to a complete stop or anything of the sort. They simply said to put it back in neutral to allow the range selection to complete, inferring that you completed the lever shift before the range selection could be completed. No big deal.

-Brett

Exactly, and because of my inexperience, fixing it once I stopped was the only way I could figure, to get back on track. Luckily at the moment I was "lost" in neutral, I was also pulling up to a red traffic light. For a very short stretch, I was able to coast smoothly to the light without making too big of a deal about it. The instructor who was testing me for a pre-hire was talking away and the last thing I wanted to do was interrupt him to tell him I was all messed up. I think it was one of those situations where you start to pick up speed, so you're ready to change ranges but then the light changes to red and you need to start shifting down again. And since there was no real harm done, no one's safety was jeopardized, and he didn't care, then no problem. With more experience, I'll be able to remedy the problem or stay out of that situation the way you and the manual and the other guys are recommending.

I've been wanting to say this for a while though, during this thread: That 2015 Freightliner with a Cummins Diesel and Eaton-Fuller manual 10-speed transmission that I tested with on Wednesday, was the nicest slice of Heaven I had ever driven so far. Holy MOLY. That tha-ang was so smooth, even when I made a boo-boo and scratched a gear, you could hardly tell. And yeah, pretty cool, I was starting to float some gears because this beauty was so danged agreeable. That was the sweetest truck I have ever driven and I swear, I was on cloud 9, all day, after having driven one for only an hour. Amazing how much easier it is to hook a set and blind-side alley dock when you're not driving a piece of doo-doo. Wow!

It was sooooooooo sweet.

To quote Ferris Bueller: "If you haven't driven one, I highly recommend it. It is so choice."

-mountain girl

You know what's worse on transmissions than range selecting in neutral.....

ROOKIES!

-Heavy C.

Too funny. Ouch. Truth hurts.

-mountain girl

It kind of contradicts itself in the eaton manual;

First it says: Never move the range lever with the shift lever in neutral while the vehicle is moving.

But then it says : If the lever shift is completed before the range shift (transmission in neutral), the lever must be moved back to neutral for the range to complete.

I know I have occasionally found myself in the wrong range or something and shifted the high-low in neutral. Usually when I shift too fast.

Info here:

http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@roadranger/documents/content/rr_trdr-0515hr.pdf

Phil