How Do You Deal With The Corporate Bs Long Term?

Brett I’ll share a short story that happened I think goes to your point.

Shipper contracts with carrier for 2 years to haul 4 loads a week, every week. The carrier gives them a per mile rate of 3.00. A trailer cleaning charge per load at 200. Detention at a rate of 100 per hour after 2 hours.

Shipper went nuts over the detetion charge. Refused the contract.

Carrier held talks with the shipper who signed a contract for 3.50 per mile and no detetion clause. Shipper was very happy. Shipper said he didn’t like the detetion clause because it was variable and was happy to pay more per mile because that was a constant. Each load for that shipper took 45 minutes to unload.

In the end that shipper paid out far more simply because he viewed it as a constant and no variables. Pretty much with being paid by the mile. It is a constant lump sum for the job to be done with no variables.

I wonder if everything was broke down and given a value how would a driver know if that was a fair price. Obvisously the cents per mile would go down.

I think its more of a perception thing. Company A pays x cents per mile and has a laundry list of little additional things that are percieved to be an advantage, rather than company B who has a flat rate per mile so people perceive all other duties are non paid.

Again, no one is doing anything for free. It seems you guys must have everything neatly labeled in order to understand it.

Don't need anything "neatly labeled". The fact remains that many drivers work for free. A driver spending hours at a shop, a shipper or in traffic isn't making money. They also underpay miles because it's "industry standard". That's why the turnover rate is so high. It's not because people can't handle the lifestyle, it's because it's a ripoff and eventually people start to feel the way Davy does.

How would you guys describe the compensation of someone who is working for a consistent salary? Let's use the example of a restaurant manager who is paid $75,000 per year.

Someone paid salary isn't paid by the piece the way a driver is. They'll get paid regardless so long as the duties are completed. It's a way to control costs and allow for flexibility. It's a silly comparison. A driver's pay is based on the miles they drive and if they don't drive they don't get paid. As a result, there's no respect for their time. They can sit there forever so long as the consignee gets their freight and the company gets paid. Nobody cares about the driver sitting there.

No one ever spells out exactly what the manager has to do to earn that salary except for one goal - grow the revenues 10% per year and the profits at 12% per year. That's it. That's the only stipulation.

That's incredibly stupid. No company gives salaried employees some ridiculous goal with no guidelines or responsibilities. There will always be a guide and rules on what a management team does in addition to the goals they're expected to accomplish. It's also silly to say that something can get accomplished with no time or work invested.

If you can't understand why getting paid by the mile is the best approach for OTR and regional drivers, then you can't possibly understand how being paid a steady salary works, either.

Best for whom? Certainly not the driver. I thought you were the advocate for the working man.... What a bunch of baloney.

so I don't believe they're taking advantage of drivers.

You don't think drivers are being taken advantage of being paid zip code to zip code on the shortest route while being instructed to go around tolls? They're not being taken advantage of when they're sitting on the side of the road for free? Keep advocating for those great working conditions.

This was my day today

Paid for every single mile I drove and everything I did. It's not that difficult to pay people for the work they're doing. It may be a slight inconvenience or an adjustment period but it's very doable. But industry standard prevents it and as long as people like you continue to defend these mega corps at the expense of employees it'll never change.

Banks, you've called my comparison between CPM and salaried workers "a silly comparison," and you've also called me stupid.

The truth is I was already programming computers and taking a college calculus course when I was 15 years old. I was accepted into the Engineering Society at 16, even before graduating high school. I was also accepted into the Coast Guard Academy at 16, an incredibly rare privilege, which would have made me a 2nd lieutenant in charge of a ship and crew at 21 years old. I was also a very good athlete in football, baseball, and hockey, and in fact, "College Prospects of America" considered me a great prospect as a college pitcher.

In other words, I had more accomplishments as a pimply-faced kid in high school than you'll have in your entire lifetime. I don't like making this personal, but I'm not about to sit back and let some simple-minded fool who can't understand 3rd-grade concepts talk down to me publicly. I won't continue to make this personal by embarrassing you further unless you continue to ask for it.

Now, let's get back to the topic at hand.

Since you're struggling to understand this concept, I asked AI to discuss my argument that getting paid by the mile is similar to having a salaried position. Here is the response, with certain passages underlined by me because they are the exact same points I had made:

Truck Drivers Paid by the Mile:

• Included Work: While truck drivers are primarily paid for the miles they drive, the pay rate is typically set with the understanding that they will also spend time on other necessary tasks such as fueling, loading, unloading, and waiting.
• Averaged Pay: The per-mile rate is often calculated to ensure that, over time, drivers are compensated for all aspects of their job. Essentially, the rate per mile is intended to cover both driving and non-driving duties.
• Efficiency Incentive: This model incentivizes drivers to maximize their driving time and minimize downtime, though it can sometimes lead to feeling like they’re unpaid for certain tasks.

Restaurant Managers Paid by Salary:

• Included Work: Salaried employees are paid a fixed amount that covers all their job responsibilities, which can include long hours, overtime, and a variety of tasks not explicitly compensated on an hourly basis.
• Expectation of Extra Hours: While they may not receive additional pay for extra hours worked, the salary is set with the expectation that managers will handle all necessary tasks to achieve economic results.
• Job Security and Predictability: Salaried positions offer stability and predictability, but they can also lead to feeling overworked if the responsibilities consistently require more than the standard working hours.

Comparison:

• Bundling Pay: In both cases, the pay structure bundles various tasks into a single payment model. For truck drivers, the per-mile rate averages out to cover all duties, while for restaurant managers, the salary is designed to encompass all responsibilities, regardless of specific tasks.
• Perception of Fairness: The perception of fairness often depends on individual experiences and expectations. A truck driver might feel unpaid for certain tasks if the per-mile rate doesn’t adequately cover all their duties, while a restaurant manager might feel overworked if the salary doesn’t reflect the time commitment required.

Summary:

Your argument is valid in that both pay structures aim to balance the total compensation with the expected workload. The key difference is how the pay is distributed and perceived. Truck drivers are compensated per mile, which is intended to average out over time to cover all their duties, while salaried employees like restaurant managers receive a fixed amount that covers all their responsibilities, with the understanding that some tasks may require more effort than others.

It’s a matter of how the compensation is structured and communicated, and both models have their pros and cons. The perception of whether one is “working for free” can depend on how well the pay aligns with the actual workload and expectations.

So AI certainly does not think it was a silly comparison, and AI also made the exact same arguments I did.

The bottom line really is simple: Getting paid by the mile for OTR and regional drivers is the best way to pay drivers for all involved. It's fair because you get paid for what you accomplish. It's also powerful because it aligns everyone's interests. The truck driver, the trucking company, and the customer win together when we figure out how to turn a lot of miles efficiently. That's a key point. You want everyone on the same page, striving for the same goals, winning or losing together. That's what mileage pay does. It's fair to everyone and it puts everyone on the same page, striving to achieve the same goals.

Brett I’ll share a short story that happened I think goes to your point...In the end that shipper paid out far more simply because he viewed it as a constant and no variables. Pretty much with being paid by the mile. It is a constant lump sum for the job to be done with no variables.

Yeah, making business projections is hard when you have variable costs. There are countless ways that companies handle this, like including fuel surcharges in their contracts and hedging fuel prices on the market.

To pay significantly more for the privilege of fixed costs isn't going to win them any "Negotiator of the Year" awards, but it does demonstrate the challenge of variable costs.

Honestly, I can't think of an industry that is more difficult to navigate than trucking, pun intended. The number of variables is remarkable. Everything changes continuously. For a trucking company to stay at the top of their game like the majors have over the years is incredibly impressive. It's one thing to get to the top, but it's even harder to stay there.

Now, it's the hardest it has ever been because technology has advanced so much. If you were to try running a large carrier without AI, machine learning, and advanced mathematics, you'd last about a month and then go out of business. It's very complex nowadays.

Brett, Banks didn’t call you stupid. He said that one of your comments was stupid. Big difference and more of a figure of speech than an insult.

No one here could read the back-and-forths that you and Banks have and possibly think either of you are stupid. Personally, it’s one of my favorite features of the forum. I love it when you and Banks debate. Both you guys are great thinkers and debaters, so I hope to see your friendly rivalry continue because when you guys do that, both sides of the issue being discussed gets presented.

My problem with the pay structure is how easy it is for companies to cheat drivers. I totally understand that the “pay per mile” model is a package deal. Where I object is when the company says a driver will get extra pay for something and then doesn’t pay it. I’ve never expected to get something I wasn’t promised, but if it was promised, then I do expect it. For example, pay statements can be so hard to decipher that it can be very difficult for the driver to tell if company promised extra (ancillary) pay is actually given. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that there is some relation between what a Driver Manager makes and how little he can pay out in extras to the drivers. I know my DM has discretion in this area and I have come to distrust him to the point that I’m considering asking for a different DM or moving to a different company altogether. I just don’t want this issue to go in my suitcase if I make a move. So I’m going to address this issue with him head on before I do anything drastic.

But I do think it is not uncommon for the office part of the company to ignore extra pay to see if the driver just won’t notice. I hate a scheme like this and I hate that in addition to all my other duties I have to worry about this problem.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that there is some relation between what a Driver Manager makes and how little he can pay out in extras to the drivers.

At many companies, that is the case. The DM has an incentive structure that encourages him to "whip the mules" and get the drivers to move as much freight as possible. It would not surprise me if they designed the system to reduce the accessory pay as much as possible. It's in the company's best interest, so it's surely happening in at least some companies.

Where I object is when the company says a driver will get extra pay for something and then doesn’t pay it. I’ve never expected to get something I wasn’t promised, but if it was promised, then I do expect it

Absolutely. It's unacceptable to break an agreement, but it happens. It's difficult, by design, for a driver to hold the company accountable. They make it a huge hassle to get your accessory pay. They hope that after a while, people will get tired of fighting over it and stop asking.

Many people see business as nothing more than "the sport of money" where the goal is to make as much as possible by any means necessary. They may or may not follow the laws in the name of self-protection, but they don't consider morals to be part of the equation.

This type of petty theft is rampant in the business world. Over the years I've been "accidentally" underpaid and overcharged a million times by a million different companies, but I can't think of a single time in my life I was "accidentally" overpaid or undercharged.

It's always, "Oh, I'm sorry. Did we forget to pay you? We'll have it on your next check." And they will, because it's in the system that you did the work, but somehow the system "forgot" to pay you.

If they started penalizing companies for any "mistakes" that work against their employees or customers, you'd be shocked how much more accurate the billing and payroll numbers would suddenly become.

I won't continue to make this personal by embarrassing you further unless you continue to ask for it.

I do not think Banks should be the one embarrassed in this situation. Funny how someone's true colors show when they are confronted.

My true colors have always shown. I treat you how you treat me. I've carried on many long, complex conversations over the years without any insults or fighting whatsoever. That's how I prefer it. But if you insult and disrespect me, I'll fire back. I always have. I was born that way.

Banks could have made his points without the "silly" or "stupid" comments, but he chose not to. He wanted to make it personal. Ok, let's do that. It's not what I prefer, but here I am if that's how you want to play it.

Now I'm happy to continue with the topic at hand, and let's not make it personal.

Ya know, it's funny how many people are offended nowadays by a man who is willing to stand up for himself and those he loves. I mean, look at the Kyle Rittenhouse situation. The young man, 17 years old, says he's going to stand up and defend his neighborhood and his family and friends from an undeserved attack. They go after him with lethal force, he defends himself to the letter of the law, and the entire country erupts on this kid like he's the problem.

Then you have Daniel Penny, the former marine, who defends an entire subway car full of innocent people from a homicidal maniac...literally....

According to Penny, Neely made three main threats repeatedly: "I'm going to kill you," "I'm prepared to go to jail for life," and "I'm willing to die." This was Penny's justification for putting Neely in a chokehold on a New York City subway. Penny said he was acting in self-defense and that race was not a factor in his decision to restrain Neely.

Yet this guy is the one on trial.

WTF happened to the men in this country? How did we go from Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, and James Dean to a bunch of softies who get offended by a simple argument between two men.

Seriously, if Banks and I want to throw insults at each other, grab some popcorn and watch the men duke it out!

Instead, I have "men" leaving the platform because they're so offended by my behavior.

Hey, I ain't winning any awards for being the nicest guy to ever live, but that's not my goal as a man. I live with integrity, I work my ass off, and I protect and provide for the people I love.

I'm an old school guy and everyone knows what that means. If you're a new school guy and your superheroes hug each other and cry, I'm not gonna be the kind of guy you can handle. I'm cool with that.

So Banks and I are duking it out. So what? What harm is done? Nothing. He insulted me, I insulted him, you guys have your popcorn, and we all get entertained. Have fun with it, learn from it, join in with us if you can handle it, or quit and run away if being around strong men is too scary for you.

Banks is obviously a strong man himself. I respect that. He doesn't mind putting on the boxing gloves sometimes, and I respect that too.

This should be you guys right now, waiting for Banks to return fire! This would be me!