Still Struggling To Understand HOS

Topic 26669 | Page 6

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Turtle's Comment
member avatar

I can confirm what PlanB is saying to be true. Prime states that only one of the daily inspections (pre or post) needs to be logged as on-duty.

0689112001569844790.jpg

Elsewhere, they go further by mandating the post trip to be logged as on-duty.

0214923001569844888.jpg

These pics are taken directly from literature provided by Prime. The literature stops short of specifically saying in writing to log the pre-trip as off-duty. They only say that one or the other can be off-duty. However, as recently as a month ago when I took an updated ELD class, the log auditor giving the class verbally told us to log the post-trip on duty, and pre-trip off-duty. I cannot find that anywhere in writing.

My personal view on the matter? The law as written is very clear. Any work is to be logged as on duty. I fail to see any gray area there.

For something as trivial and inconsequential as a few minutes per day, I'm not willing to risk my squeaky clean license on someone's interpretation of the law. Especially when the company suggestion seems so at odds with virtually every other piece of writing I can find on the subject. Without fail, I log a full pretrip on duty, as well as a short post-trip walk around.

Old School's Comment
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Without fail, I log a full pretrip on duty, as well as a short post-trip walk around.

That's exactly my procedure.

Brett Aquila's Comment
member avatar
So based on the regulations and the FMCSA guidance, you would not have to perform a detailed inspection report BOTH post-trip AND pre-trip

That's correct. You are not required to do both, only one or the other officially.

The law as written is very clear. Any work is to be logged as on duty. I fail to see any gray area there.

That is also correct. You must log any inspection you do as on-duty, regardless of how long it takes or when it's done. Prime asking you to perform an inspection of your truck off-duty, as far as I can tell, is illegal. You can not require someone to perform any job duty, nor even ask them to be ready for duty, without it being logged as on-duty. Again, from the CDL manual:

Just what kind of work is considered on-duty time? It includes all time you are working or are required to be ready to work, for any employer.

Now "be ready to work" is really a gray area that can be hard to define. You could technically say sitting at a truck stop waiting for your next assignment is on-duty time, but I believe the company would consider you "relieved of duty":

All time spent at a plant, shipping / receiving facility, terminal , or other facility of a motor carrier, unless you are in your sleeper berth or have been relieved of all work related responsibilities.

CDL:

Commercial Driver's License (CDL)

A CDL is required to drive any of the following vehicles:

  • Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, providing the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
  • Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 pounds.
  • Any vehicle, regardless of size, designed to transport 16 or more persons, including the driver.
  • Any vehicle required by federal regulations to be placarded while transporting hazardous materials.

Terminal:

A facility where trucking companies operate out of, or their "home base" if you will. A lot of major companies have multiple terminals around the country which usually consist of the main office building, a drop lot for trailers, and sometimes a repair shop and wash facilities.

Sleeper Berth:

The portion of the tractor behind the seats which acts as the "living space" for the driver. It generally contains a bed (or bunk beds), cabinets, lights, temperature control knobs, and 12 volt plugs for power.

CSA:

Compliance, Safety, Accountability (CSA)

The CSA is a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) initiative to improve large truck and bus safety and ultimately reduce crashes, injuries, and fatalities that are related to commercial motor vehicle

FMCSA:

Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

The FMCSA was established within the Department of Transportation on January 1, 2000. Their primary mission is to prevent commercial motor vehicle-related fatalities and injuries.

What Does The FMCSA Do?

  • Commercial Drivers' Licenses
  • Data and Analysis
  • Regulatory Compliance and Enforcement
  • Research and Technology
  • Safety Assistance
  • Support and Information Sharing

Fm:

Dispatcher, Fleet Manager, Driver Manager

The primary person a driver communicates with at his/her company. A dispatcher can play many roles, depending on the company's structure. Dispatchers may assign freight, file requests for home time, relay messages between the driver and management, inform customer service of any delays, change appointment times, and report information to the load planners.
Brett Aquila's Comment
member avatar

By the way, Turtle, thanks for taking photos of their requirements in writing. It's kind of jarring to see them require their drivers to log a work-related task as off-duty and put it in writing. I've found no regulations that would permit them to do that.

Turtle's Comment
member avatar

Well, it's important to note that they don't require us to do this. They only suggest that we can do it.

What isn't said is as interesting as what is. That's the gray area I'm not comfortable with, which is why I choose to err on the side of caution.

OOS:

When a violation by either a driver or company is confirmed, an out-of-service order removes either the driver or the vehicle from the roadway until the violation is corrected.

Brett Aquila's Comment
member avatar
Well, it's important to note that they don't require us to do this.

The exact wording says, "Each driver is responsible for both a pre-trip and post-trip inspection each drive shift. One must be logged on-duty, the other may be logged off-duty as a walk-around."

So they do require two inspections to be done, but only require that you log one. I really don't believe they can legally do that. If they require you to perform an inspection it must be logged on-duty as far as I know. Just like they can't say, "Every driver can drive a maximum of 11 hours in a 14 hour shift but it's only mandatory to log 10 of the hours as drive time." You can't just say it's ok not to log certain things when the FMCSA clearly states otherwise.

Where is Rickipedia when you need him?

smile.gif

Maybe there's an exception in the rules somewhere that permits a walk-around inspection without it being logged on-duty.

CSA:

Compliance, Safety, Accountability (CSA)

The CSA is a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) initiative to improve large truck and bus safety and ultimately reduce crashes, injuries, and fatalities that are related to commercial motor vehicle

FMCSA:

Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

The FMCSA was established within the Department of Transportation on January 1, 2000. Their primary mission is to prevent commercial motor vehicle-related fatalities and injuries.

What Does The FMCSA Do?

  • Commercial Drivers' Licenses
  • Data and Analysis
  • Regulatory Compliance and Enforcement
  • Research and Technology
  • Safety Assistance
  • Support and Information Sharing

Fm:

Dispatcher, Fleet Manager, Driver Manager

The primary person a driver communicates with at his/her company. A dispatcher can play many roles, depending on the company's structure. Dispatchers may assign freight, file requests for home time, relay messages between the driver and management, inform customer service of any delays, change appointment times, and report information to the load planners.
Truckin Along With Kearse's Comment
member avatar

Everyone is acting all surprised. But one person here has posted in the past that he knowingly violated to "get it done" and his dispatcher gave him an "attaboy". Another has stated in the past that fueling and customer check ins are always 7 min....which is not only pattern logging but also illegal. So let us speak the truth and not sugar coat it and get all holier than thou.

Sitting in a fuel lane for 15 minutes just to get to the pump is legally on duty. waiting another 10 min for the guy in front of you to move is also. How about washouts where there is a 2 hour wait in the Blue Beacon in MI?

G Town never has to pick up (waiting in a door for hours) and then drive 580 miles in one drive shift to deliver to a customer then wait 2 hours for a door... and another 4 hours to get unloaded. That moving in and out of doors is legally on duty, but no one logs that. Not to mention the 14 is now DEAD and it had NOTHING to do with trip planning or the driver. I have had plenty of 20+ hour days to get it done, cause without doing it, it is really really hard to get that coveted 3000 mile week that is bragged about so much.

How about getting loaded heading 20 miles to a scale then coming back to get reworked which takes another 3 hours. then needing to go park afterwards way way past your 14 cause there is no parking at the plant.

even if the time in the door is off duty, the movement is legally on duty. how many times do people really log properly? if you do, it interrupts your 10 hour break that many of us take at customers.

MO DOT is the one who gave my logs class 3/2017 for my trainer's class. He specifically said "one on duty vehicle inspection per day, whether before, during, or after the trip". He also gave it to me in writing but i changed trucks twice and can't find it right now. At that time the "unladen" wording was in the PC rule. He specifically said "unladen" meant empty trailer or bobtail and not assigned a load or preplan. Yet everyone here argued that point.

I have been through 4 inspections and passed all. Prime's CSA was blemished due to 2 large accidents and DOT has been inspecting the crap out of us, even coming to the terminals and going through logs. Our scores have improved.

I haven't read Brett's book in years but i seem.to.remember it was kinda outlaw cutting corners renegade-ish?

Plan B and Turtle spoke the truth.

In the end, we all need to do what we think is right. We suffer the consequences if wrong. E logs are changing everything.

I could argue Swift and Knight policies on other things, but i won't because that would be company bashing and not accepted here right?

And the way I read it, Plan B was basically called a liar and it was proven it isn't.

Bobtail:

"Bobtailing" means you are driving a tractor without a trailer attached.

Terminal:

A facility where trucking companies operate out of, or their "home base" if you will. A lot of major companies have multiple terminals around the country which usually consist of the main office building, a drop lot for trailers, and sometimes a repair shop and wash facilities.

CSA:

Compliance, Safety, Accountability (CSA)

The CSA is a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) initiative to improve large truck and bus safety and ultimately reduce crashes, injuries, and fatalities that are related to commercial motor vehicle

DOT:

Department Of Transportation

A department of the federal executive branch responsible for the national highways and for railroad and airline safety. It also manages Amtrak, the national railroad system, and the Coast Guard.

State and Federal DOT Officers are responsible for commercial vehicle enforcement. "The truck police" you could call them.

Dispatcher:

Dispatcher, Fleet Manager, Driver Manager

The primary person a driver communicates with at his/her company. A dispatcher can play many roles, depending on the company's structure. Dispatchers may assign freight, file requests for home time, relay messages between the driver and management, inform customer service of any delays, change appointment times, and report information to the load planners.

TWIC:

Transportation Worker Identification Credential

Truck drivers who regularly pick up from or deliver to the shipping ports will often be required to carry a TWIC card.

Your TWIC is a tamper-resistant biometric card which acts as both your identification in secure areas, as well as an indicator of you having passed the necessary security clearance. TWIC cards are valid for five years. The issuance of TWIC cards is overseen by the Transportation Security Administration and the Department of Homeland Security.

OWI:

Operating While Intoxicated

Turtle's Comment
member avatar

I totally get what you're saying. It's the word "may" in the above quote that gives them an out, intentional or not. They don't explicitly forbid us from logging both inspections on duty.

It's baffling, for sure.

G-Town's Comment
member avatar
G Town never has to pick up (waiting in a door for hours) and then drive 580 miles in one drive shift to deliver to a customer then wait 2 hours for a door... and another 4 hours to get unloaded. That moving in and out of doors is legally on duty, but no one logs that. Not to mention the 14 is now DEAD and it had NOTHING to do with trip planning or the driver. I have had plenty of 20+ hour days to get it done, cause without doing it, it is really really hard to get that coveted 3000 mile week that is bragged about so much.

I have a different completely different set of challenges when attempting product delivery to 4-5 stores per shift. I am required to be on-duty while overseeing the live unload, on average 45 minutes per stop once docked. Gaining access to a store's interior can be time consuming as well (especially in Urban areas like Philly) again logged on-duty. I invoke many different paths to gain access, and tailor it based on previous experience with specific locations. I also can be under 3 different trailers in one shift, each requiring a pre-trip, which I am required to log as on-duty. 14 hours gets used up rather quickly for a 5-stop run in North Jersey.

I cannot bend the rules for these work related activities...and required to log this time as on-duty.

Rookie Doyenne's Comment
member avatar

Ah, no such thing as a dumb question, right?

Understanding this accurately must be obvious, relating to conserving use of time on the 14 clock, I'm wondering... just trying to chunk and integrate all this info in my early stages of prep.

What is the incentive on Prime's part to simply not advise to log each / every inspection?

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