Still Struggling To Understand HOS

Topic 26669 | Page 5

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Susan D. 's Comment
member avatar

Officer Hoover just replied and said ALL WORK, including pretrip inspections must be logged as ON-DUTY.

Please, dear Prime drivers.. protect yourself and log your pretrip as on duty. Its required by federal regulations.

Joel D.'s Comment
member avatar

Now I know next to nothing about any of this but that sounds correct to me.

Please, dear Prime drivers.. protect yourself and log your pretrip as on duty. Its required by federal regulations.
Susan D. 's Comment
member avatar

Joel, if you do Facebook, I highly recommend that you follow officer Brent Hoover on the Indiana Commercial Vehicle Enforcement page. He's actually a really good guy and will answer any questions you may have without judgement. His mission is to educate and help drivers.. believe it or not. Indiana also happens to be very "by the book " when it comes to commercial vehicle enforcement.

Drew Oswalt's Comment
member avatar

As a Swift driver, if we do not log on as on duty to do a pre-trip, we get a company hos violation. Post-trip. No.

There are other things about "on-duty" time I've learned about recently on this site. And will just err on the safe side to be in "compliance".

HOS:

Hours Of Service

HOS refers to the logbook hours of service regulations.
Big T's Comment
member avatar

I think some of the confusion stems from the paper log vs electronic logs situation.

When we were running paper logs it was acceptable to only log one inspection. However, you still had to flag the second one. Usually this meant logging your pretrip because as G-town pointed out it more important to do a thorough inspection before you hit the road than before you sit in the truckstop for ten hours.

The reason this was acceptable was because paper logs were in fifteen minute increments. So anything less than 7.5 minutes could be flagged without actually being logged on duty.

With electronic logs being down to the minute or seconds I don't see how anyone or any company could argue not logging both as on duty.

If you're logging a 15 plus minute inspection off duty and not getting cited for log falsification then you are extremely lucky. I would stay away from Utah, Georgia, and Indiana because your luck may run out in those states.

Electronic Logs:

Electronic Onboard Recorder

Electronic Logbook

A device which records the amount of time a vehicle has been driven. If the vehicle is not being driven, the operator will manually input whether or not he/she is on duty or not.

HOS:

Hours Of Service

HOS refers to the logbook hours of service regulations.
Old School's Comment
member avatar
How about we just log our logs the way our company wants them logged, and not give others grief for following our companys policies?

This is very interesting. I've never heard of anyone logging their pre-trip inspection as "off-duty." It's baffling to me that this could be Prime's company policy.

I don't know that anyone here is giving you grief. I think we're more concerned that a D.O.T. officer will give you grief. They could care less about some misguided company policy. You guys say you haven't been questioned about it, and I'm glad for you, but it still puzzles me. It's very much contrary to anything I've come across.

Pre-trip Inspection:

A pre-trip inspection is a thorough inspection of the truck completed before driving for the first time each day.

Federal and state laws require that drivers inspect their vehicles. Federal and state inspectors also may inspect your vehicles. If they judge a vehicle to be unsafe, they will put it “out of service” until it is repaired.

OWI:

Operating While Intoxicated

Brett Aquila's Comment
member avatar

Logging pre-trip inspections and post-trip inspections as on-duty is an FMCSA regulation.

Here is a quote from the CDL manual:

13.3 Determining On Duty And Off Duty Time

Just what kind of work is considered on-duty time? It includes all time you are working or are required to be ready to work, for any employer. Here are some specific activities which are considered to be on duty time:

  • All time spent at a plant, shipping / receiving facility, terminal , or other facility of a motor carrier, unless you are in your sleeper berth or have been relieved of all work related responsibilities.
  • All time inspecting or servicing your truck, including fueling it and washing it.
  • All driving time.
  • All other time in a truck unless you are resting in a sleeper berth.
  • All time loading, unloading, supervising, or attending your truck; or handling paperwork for shipments.
  • All time spent providing a breath, saliva, hair, or urine sample for drug / alcohol testing, including travel to and from the collection site.
  • All time spent doing any other work for a motor carrier, including giving or receiving training and driving a company car.
  • All time spent doing paid work for anyone who is not a motor carrier, such as a part-time job at a local restaurant.

So the answer is yes, all truck inspections must be logged as on-duty according to the FMCSA.

Beyond that, let's think about this logically for a moment. Forget about company policies, laws, or regulations. Just ask yourself, "When I am inspecting my company's vehicle, am I performing a task that would be considered one of my duties as a truck driver?"

If anyone has a company policy that states they are to log any inspection as off-duty, I would love to see that in writing. I would also love to hear an explanation from someone in the log department or compliance department. If you're logging an inspection as off-duty I would think you would also want to see this in writing and get an explanation because it clearly goes against all logic and FMCSA policy.

Pre-trip Inspection:

A pre-trip inspection is a thorough inspection of the truck completed before driving for the first time each day.

Federal and state laws require that drivers inspect their vehicles. Federal and state inspectors also may inspect your vehicles. If they judge a vehicle to be unsafe, they will put it “out of service” until it is repaired.

CDL:

Commercial Driver's License (CDL)

A CDL is required to drive any of the following vehicles:

  • Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, providing the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
  • Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 pounds.
  • Any vehicle, regardless of size, designed to transport 16 or more persons, including the driver.
  • Any vehicle required by federal regulations to be placarded while transporting hazardous materials.

Logbook:

A written or electronic record of a driver's duty status which must be maintained at all times. The driver records the amount of time spent driving, on-duty not driving, in the sleeper berth, or off duty. The enforcement of the Hours Of Service Rules (HOS) are based upon the entries put in a driver's logbook.

Terminal:

A facility where trucking companies operate out of, or their "home base" if you will. A lot of major companies have multiple terminals around the country which usually consist of the main office building, a drop lot for trailers, and sometimes a repair shop and wash facilities.

Sleeper Berth:

The portion of the tractor behind the seats which acts as the "living space" for the driver. It generally contains a bed (or bunk beds), cabinets, lights, temperature control knobs, and 12 volt plugs for power.

CSA:

Compliance, Safety, Accountability (CSA)

The CSA is a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) initiative to improve large truck and bus safety and ultimately reduce crashes, injuries, and fatalities that are related to commercial motor vehicle

FMCSA:

Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

The FMCSA was established within the Department of Transportation on January 1, 2000. Their primary mission is to prevent commercial motor vehicle-related fatalities and injuries.

What Does The FMCSA Do?

  • Commercial Drivers' Licenses
  • Data and Analysis
  • Regulatory Compliance and Enforcement
  • Research and Technology
  • Safety Assistance
  • Support and Information Sharing

Fm:

Dispatcher, Fleet Manager, Driver Manager

The primary person a driver communicates with at his/her company. A dispatcher can play many roles, depending on the company's structure. Dispatchers may assign freight, file requests for home time, relay messages between the driver and management, inform customer service of any delays, change appointment times, and report information to the load planners.
PackRat's Comment
member avatar

Off Duty inspections makes about as much sense as driving while in Sleeper Berth.

I don't believe that for a second. Prove it.

Sleeper Berth:

The portion of the tractor behind the seats which acts as the "living space" for the driver. It generally contains a bed (or bunk beds), cabinets, lights, temperature control knobs, and 12 volt plugs for power.

Rob T.'s Comment
member avatar

I could see getting away without logging a pretrip because isnt the regulation (not company policies) that you log pre OR post? The 2 companies I've driven for have always said to make sure you log yourself to "on duty" before doing the pre and post inspection, if you're off duty or on the drive line it will not count.

Off Duty inspections makes about as much sense as driving while in Sleeper Berth.

Maybe they have REALLY long legs?

Sleeper Berth:

The portion of the tractor behind the seats which acts as the "living space" for the driver. It generally contains a bed (or bunk beds), cabinets, lights, temperature control knobs, and 12 volt plugs for power.

Rob D.'s Comment
member avatar

Is this an issue of pre-trip vs. post-trip? Until Plan B posted the actual regulations, I understood that the regulations required a detailed vehicle inspection during the pre-trip. The Missouri CDL Manual lists "pre-trip" in the table of contents. But the FMCSA regulations specifically require the DVIR only on a post-trip.

Further, the guidance from the FMCSA states that if a post-trip detailed inspection, including a DVIR, was not performed, it can be done as part of a pre-trip inspection.

Question 14: In instances where the DVIR has not been prepared or cannot be located, is it permissible under §396.11 for a driver to prepare a DVIR based on a pretrip inspection and a short drive of a motor vehicle?

Guidance: Yes. §396.11 of the FMCSRs places the responsibility on the motor carrier to require its drivers to prepare and submit the DVIR. If, in unusual circumstances, the DVIR has not been prepared or cannot be located the motor carrier may cause a road test and inspection to be performed for safety of operation and the DVIR to be prepared.

FMCSA Guidance 369.11

So based on the regulations and the FMCSA guidance, you would not have to perform a detailed inspection report BOTH post-trip AND pre-trip. You only have to do one either time. So for Prime and Plan B, if you've done a DVIR post-trip, which is reflected on your log, it would be difficult for a DOT official to point to a specific section of the regulations that requires a detailed pre-trip inspection prior to driving the vehicle. The same thing for someone who does not do a DVIR post-trip. If they perform a detailed inspection report pre-trip, including a DVIR, based on FMCSA's guidance, a DOT official can't cite them for failing to do a DVIR post-trip. But given that the guidance says "unusual circumstances" always doing detailed inspection report pre-trip would seem to be subject to challenge. Maybe this is why Prime has the policy of logging post-trip inspections, but not pre-trip inspections.

Although, if you actually perform the same detailed inspection both pre-trip and post-trip, as Brett points out you would have to log it as on-duty. So a DOT officer who had it in for you could ask you what you do during the pre-trip and post-trip. If you list everything required by the DVIR, he could then cite you for falsifying your logs.

Pre-trip Inspection:

A pre-trip inspection is a thorough inspection of the truck completed before driving for the first time each day.

Federal and state laws require that drivers inspect their vehicles. Federal and state inspectors also may inspect your vehicles. If they judge a vehicle to be unsafe, they will put it “out of service” until it is repaired.

CDL:

Commercial Driver's License (CDL)

A CDL is required to drive any of the following vehicles:

  • Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, providing the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
  • Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 pounds.
  • Any vehicle, regardless of size, designed to transport 16 or more persons, including the driver.
  • Any vehicle required by federal regulations to be placarded while transporting hazardous materials.

CSA:

Compliance, Safety, Accountability (CSA)

The CSA is a Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) initiative to improve large truck and bus safety and ultimately reduce crashes, injuries, and fatalities that are related to commercial motor vehicle

FMCSA:

Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

The FMCSA was established within the Department of Transportation on January 1, 2000. Their primary mission is to prevent commercial motor vehicle-related fatalities and injuries.

What Does The FMCSA Do?

  • Commercial Drivers' Licenses
  • Data and Analysis
  • Regulatory Compliance and Enforcement
  • Research and Technology
  • Safety Assistance
  • Support and Information Sharing

DOT:

Department Of Transportation

A department of the federal executive branch responsible for the national highways and for railroad and airline safety. It also manages Amtrak, the national railroad system, and the Coast Guard.

State and Federal DOT Officers are responsible for commercial vehicle enforcement. "The truck police" you could call them.

BMI:

Body mass index (BMI)

BMI is a formula that uses weight and height to estimate body fat. For most people, BMI provides a reasonable estimate of body fat. The BMI's biggest weakness is that it doesn't consider individual factors such as bone or muscle mass. BMI may:

  • Underestimate body fat for older adults or other people with low muscle mass
  • Overestimate body fat for people who are very muscular and physically fit

It's quite common, especially for men, to fall into the "overweight" category if you happen to be stronger than average. If you're pretty strong but in good shape then pay no attention.

Fm:

Dispatcher, Fleet Manager, Driver Manager

The primary person a driver communicates with at his/her company. A dispatcher can play many roles, depending on the company's structure. Dispatchers may assign freight, file requests for home time, relay messages between the driver and management, inform customer service of any delays, change appointment times, and report information to the load planners.
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