Bill Gates (Microsoft) And Jeff Bezos (Amazon) Crushed By Trucking!

The more and quicker loads I safely produce, the more money I make.

absolutely, but you're being shorted miles which in turn makes your piece work pay less. It may be less confusing and take away the illusion of working for free to tell a driver we'll pay ya $1000 to run this load from NYC down to Miami (just pulling random locations) rather than telling them you'll pay them 50 cents a mile but then not pay them all the miles they actually ran. Some would have a problem with flat rate pay though because they'd feel they're being shorted in other ways I'm sure. As Old School pointed out there's driving jobs out there that pay many different ways. Personally I've seen hourly, mile/stop, flat rate, daily pay, salary and percentage.

I've got far too much going on in my personal life to really deep dive into it, but I think it'd be interesting to see how driver turnover rate differs between how a driver is paid. Again, my job isnt like OTR as we haul mainly stuff for our own stores and LTL , home nearly every night and given the choice of hourly or mile/stop. Our turnover rate is extremely low compared to the national levels. In nearly 5 years I can only recall maybe 10 guys of the 197 we now have that have quit or got fired and most of those were low in seniority.

Brett said

. Learn to speak professionally with the office personnel

When I say "speak professionally," I mean not only your tone and attitude but the content of what you're saying.

I don't necessarily agree with what my upper management does and that's OK. I wasn't hired to deal with that and my priorities are different. Whenever I have a concern I make sure I am calm and collective and then address it over text message with them, but also tell them to call if they'd like to further discuss it. In doing so I keep all emotions out of it and state facts. For example a couple weeks ago I got sent to Vistar in the Minneapolis area. I'd been running into issues of missing paperwork for our LTL deliveries quite a bit lately and sent my manager a text later that morning that said

Hey had a reoccurring issue pop up today that seems to happen about every other week for me. Missing contract paperwork. It's a waste of time needing to track it down in the morning before leaving, or waiting on dispatch/contract to get it sent over. It looks bad from a customer service perspective as well. Today at Vistar MN I was unloaded within an hour but sat there an additional 2 1/2 hours waiting for the paperwork to be sent over. They would not unlock my gladhand lock until they had the BOL in hand. It's also illegal to be moving freight without proper paperwork.

I'm not sure if it's feasible to remedy this by scanning any paperwork into the system when the warehouse receives it so we can get it printed before we leave if needed and auto delete after a set amount of time, or even having the person receiving it in our WH attach a packing slip containing a BOL. Also, for the order today I was told by dispatch they were aware of it yesterday but didn't resolve it so it's ready to go.

The response I got?

Let me follow up with everyone because you are spot on and we need a resolution. I'm going to ask the question I'll keep you posted.

I offered a potential solution that I feel would fix the problem on the drivers end but there may be things on the backend that I'm not aware of preventing it from happening. I didn't fly off the handle and accuse someone of trying to screw me over, nor did I allow my emotions to be a factor. This happened a couple weeks ago so next week I'll follow up with him if I haven't heard anything.

Lots of good thoughts here. One thing that struck me, though, was Brett's comment about hourly drivers. I'm paid hourly. I worked intermodal for three years. Anyone that has driven intermodal knows how valuable their time is. Pay by percent of load, by the mile, or by any formula other than hourly is useless when you end up at Landers for five hours because the lift crews are having a work slow hissy fit.

I'm currently hourly. I maximize my time to move as much freight as far as I can, within the limits of the hos. I "ride for the brand" and avoid drama creation. The comments on professional conduct apply universally.

Thanks for a civil discussion, I'm enjoying this one.

I'm currently hourly. I maximize my time to move as much freight as far as I can, within the limits of the hos. I "ride for the brand" and avoid drama creation. The comments on professional conduct apply universally.

Which is how it should be. Unfortunately many drivers don't feel the same. My generation has far too many people that want everything handed to them even if they didn't earn it. Why get to their delivery early or get back on the road asap when they could just stay in the bunk and play Xbox? Without having someone over your shoulder supervising you at all times it's hard to get rid of drivers that are milking the clock. What's stopping a lazy clock sucker (as they're called at my job) from staying a couple extra hours after getting unloaded while still being paid? If Sysco usually takes 5 hours but miraculously gets you out in 2 what's to stop the driver from staying an extra 3 hours? I really don't know what the best way to handle pay is in regards to being the most beneficial to everyone. Someone previously mentioned that they don't get paid their detention time until the customer pays it. If the customer refuses to pay it the driver gets nothing. I want to say it was Kearsy in regards to Prime but I may be mistaken.

I have alot of respect for everyone that's chimed in on this discussion. One thing that sticks out though is Brett, Davy, and Old School currently own a business or did in the past. That plays a large role in your views because you've seen it from both sides. You have a better idea of the entire picture than somebody like me that hasn't owned a business and is content being an employee. Another factor is age. In general the older generations are more loyal to the company, or ride for the brand as Mr C put it. I'm overall happy with my current employer and position but periodically look at what else is out there to advance my career even further. We recently had 2 driver supervisor positions open at my current employer and I canceled my interview for it when I found out it'd be a $50k a year paycut so it tells me that management will be a no go as it'll make my long term financial goals harder to reach. I'd be content staying where I'm at for 30 years and I'll do what I can to ensure success for myself and the employer. But at the end of the day it's just a job. I show up, expect to be compensated well to be able to provide for my family.

I agree this thread has developed with alot of good information and insight. Well done!!

Companies not paying detention until and if they are paid is fairly typical from my past experiences. Some would pay it out, then bill the customer for it but if the customer through a fit or refused to pay it many times they would “adjust” the drivers pay, IE: take it back.

I always felt this was the company’s decision how to handle their customer and should not penalize drivers, that have no input on those decisions. Also I have never once seen the information in recruiting adds. Drivers typically find out that part after they get hired.

Piecework for a driver appears that it can be quite different than piecework for a construction worker. Somewhat adjustable by the company to the driver.

In construction, one example of the difference that I’ll cite is roofing. Every shingle installation job I ever did as a contractor was paid by the square (100 sq. ft.). So much per 100 sq ft of roof area covered. Never did the general contractor say after the job was done he wasn’t making enough money on the project to cover his costs, so instead of the $40 per square agreed on up front, I’m only going to pay $35 per square. So piecework in trucking is a fickle friend, based on what I’m reading in this thread. In reading what Rob T has had to say here about this issue, I believe that my thoughts are fairly closely aligned with his.

Keep in mind here that an employee driver who gets paid by the mile for their work is normally working a lot of overtime and not getting paid for the overtime thanks to the industry structure. Remember, it’s a 70 hour clock, not a 40 hour week. And l don’t think I’m alone in my practice of doing other tasks “off duty” so as not to run down my drive and duty time, just for example, grease my 5th wheel, go to the truck wash, etc. Am I violating some regulations by doing that? Technically I am but it doesn’t violate my conscience at all. As long as I can continue to avoid jail time for those egregious crimes, I’ll keep it up.

So do I think it’s right to require a driver to accept pay for fewer miles than he has driven? No, not if he’s a by-the-mile driver, but I’m part of the system and not a labor rights activist so I’ll just try to get as many miles as I can while I can.

One question I have that I’m sure the experienced guys here have insight into, is why do only a few companies pay hub miles? What are the reasons most companies avoid the “hub” mile model of driver compensation?

One question I have that I’m sure the experienced guys here have insight into, is why do only a few companies pay hub miles? What are the reasons most companies avoid the “hub” mile model of driver compensation?

I'm just guessing, but I'd imagine it's because drivers have become accustomed it just being the way it is and accepting it. Most businesses are looking at ways to reduce expenses. By paying zip to zip or other ways they're able to save a few bucks there. Multiply that by even just 100 trucks you're looking good. I'm sure pressure from stock holders as well as upper management's bonuses add to their reasoning.

Not really any different than some companies not paying overtime. They're legally able to and drivers accept it as just being part of trucking.

Never did the general contractor say after the job was done he wasn’t making enough money on the project to cover his costs, so instead of the $40 per square agreed on up front, I’m only going to pay $35 per square. So piecework in trucking is a fickle friend, based on what I’m reading in this thread.

That comparison makes no sense to me. I've never even heard of a trucking company changing what they are willing to pay after a driver has delivered. The driver knows how much he's getting paid per mile, and he knows how many miles the company is paying for before he ever gets started.

I've said for years in here that each load you run is basically a contractual agreement between driver and company. The driver can agree to the contract by accepting the load, or they can simply decide they aren't willing to do it. Or, maybe he can negotiate a better deal.

If the driver doesn't care for those options he can find a job that suits him better. I'm extremely fortunate in my situation. Every load I run is the load I chose. Every time I get dispatched I have about ten loads I can choose from. I know the miles allotted for the loads, and I choose wisely. I realize very few drivers have those options. You have to build your own value in this business. I think it's one of the most misunderstood factors in trucking.

What are the reasons most companies avoid the “hub” mile model of driver compensation?

Hub miles becomes an easy thing to manipulate. It's like hourly compensation. People find ways to stretch their pay. Instead of taking the most efficient route, they may swing by and visit their cousins expecting compensation for their extra miles.

Do you guys remember the basic premise of this whole conversation? It was that trucking has evolved into an efficient well oiled machine. Even the software gurus with their wealth and talents can't seem to improve on it. We are running the way we run because it works.

As far as I can see these alternative pay methods have been developed as marketing schemes. They know there's a certain amount of people who gravitate that way, and the scheme works to attract those drivers. If the methods actually worked better, we'd see them more widely used.

It's a very competitive business. Fierce competition gives birth to efficiency. Trucking is foundational to our American economy. It's only natural that the most effective methods prevail. Brett's comments about trucking companies and drivers being "frenemies" were spot on accurate.

I agree. Over the years I've had many disputes about the amount of squares a roof took to get done, how cut up it was, how many vents and skylights were included, what the ride and starter were paying, etc. I fins trucking to be remarkably similar.

While I agree on premise that it's frustrating to be paid less miles than a job is worth, I always make it up elsewhere. At Knight, they have a tough time adding miles, almost impossible. But the can easily add breakdown pay, misc bonuses, layover pay, and detention.

I've had the discussion countless times and been compensated nicely. I'll usually point out the overage, send a screenshot of the route and ask if they can throw me a bonus or layover to cover it. It's just business. I don't care where the money comes from, as long as it comes.

I set my target foe the money I want for the week and month and do whatever I can to obtain that goal.

As far as I can see these alternative pay methods have been developed as marketing schemes.

I need to be careful how I say some things. I'm quite certain there are trucking jobs where alternative pay methods actually work better. That goes right back to the competitive nature of trucking. What works will generally rise to the top in each situation. Forgive me, sometimes I'm so focused on the OTR work I'm so familiar with that I overlook how some of the other sectors work.

As far as I can see these alternative pay methods have been developed as marketing schemes.

I need to be careful how I say some things. I'm quite certain there are trucking jobs where alternative pay methods actually work better. That goes right back to the competitive nature of trucking. What works will generally rise to the top in each situation. Forgive me, sometimes I'm so focused on the OTR work I'm so familiar with that I overlook how some of the other sectors work.

It definitely seems to be a marketing ploy and drivers fall for it. That's why I mentioned it'd be interesting to compare turnover rates for companies that pay differently.

Honestly I think it's just a matter of time before my employer changes our mile/stop pay. Before we added our frozen loads it made sense. When I run a fresh load that is roughly half my trailer I only have a couple stops. To unload it and put it where it belongs it'll take me between 30 to 45 minutes at each store to earn my $31.97 stop pay. With a frozen load it's usually only 2 or 3 pallets takes maybe 10 minutes but still earn the same stop pay. When we run flowers it's usually 1 pallet and youre only on the property maybe 5 minutes including opening/closing your door. If I'm running fresh it breaks down to about $37 or $38/hr. Frozen about $42 to $45/hr. Flowers it depends on how close the stores are near each other but in the rare event I get them (due to seniority) I'm at nearly $60 or more per hour. We have a guy in the top 5 seniority that frequently does 15 to 20 flower stops in our local area driving maybe 100 miles. He's making $550-$700 for 8 to 9 hours! Of course that's an extreme example but they do exist. For most of our mile/stop drivers they're in the $37/hr range. So my company is spending an additional $7.30 on me (even less on guys with more seniority) per hour but don't need to pay me for an hour break like they do the hourly guys. So in a 10 hour day assuming i work as efficiently I'm earning about $40 more (if i take my hourly paid break @ $29.70) than if I was hourly before we calculate overtime pay, but im also working an hour longer to get that break. On our logs it shows our ETAs automatically calculated based on previous drivers doing those stops. I'm often finishing my route about an hour ahead of schedule if I only have store deliveries so now my company is only paying me an extra $10 for that day vs hourly. By having my pay already determined before starting my day it pushes me to get done earlier so I have more time for myself and family. By working faster and more efficiently the stores are getting their delivery faster allowing them to minimize labor hours wasted at the store level waiting on the truck.

The frozen and flower loads is a flaw in the current system but is favorable for the driver. The best option would be lowering the pay per stop for frozen, and even lower for flowers. If they tweak our payscale many drivers will be hurting financially. I budget based on what my hourly checks looked like so when they're usually a couple hundred more every week that just goes straight to savings. We have guys earning over $2000 a week living paycheck to paycheck that would be devastated if changes are made.

Percentage pay I'm sure was very profitable the last couple years when the rates were high. This year not so much. That's also not ideal though because as we've mentioned many times how can you truly know what your company is getting paid for that load.

If you pay a flat rate per load you'll have people complain that their mile or hourly average broke down lower than the previous load and it isn't fair they had to sit 20 hours at the meat packing plant without additional compensation.

Salary, or hourly run into the same issue of less than ambitious individuals doing the absolute minimum required to keep their job. They're earning whether they're actually working or not.

These examples I provided of course are extremes but you'll always have people trying to manipulate others and get what they haven't rightfully earned. Most members on this forum don't fit in that category and unfortunately suffer because there's less than honest people out there.